We are continuing discussing the dangers of the Kazakh citizens’ “zombification” by the Russian media*. Today our partner in conversation is Marat Tolibayev.

 Marat Tolibayev is a popular blogger in Kazakhstan and the head of the Smart Investments company. He has worked as a state official at the Astata government and the Ministry of Agriculture. His posts on Facebook are not only topical but also mind challenging.

Marat Tolibayev

January 27

I am worried about those who watch TV. Most of them prefer the Russian channels that are, in fact, real propaganda “zombardiers”.

Today, when visiting a public office, I inadvertently found myself under an attack of one such zombardier. In ten minutes, I had almost turned into a zealot of Mr. Putin’s great and insightful policies. Now consider that housewives and retirees are watching it from dusk till dawn. It’s scary to imagine what’s going on in their heads. Most of them have no opportunity to hear a different point of view, especially in English.

OK, we cannot get into the housewives’ heads or change the TV channels in their homes. But could we at least remedy the situation at the public places?

I believe, the public offices and gathering areas in Kazakhstan should broadcast the Kazakh TV channels. And I am not talking about the pseudo-Kazakh stuff such as “Perviy Kanal Evrasia” (the Kazakh franchise of Channel 1 Russia – Kazakhstan 2.0). I mean our real ones. I realize that our channels are no less propagandistic, but, out of these two poisons, I definitely prefer ours.

— Marat, based on your post, do you believe that the Russian propaganda dominates the Kazakh media space and influences our minds and souls?

— In my opinion, Russia’s influence on our media sphere is very strong. The most popular TV and radio channels belong to the Russian companies that are broadcasted from Russia.

— Why is their influence such a strong one?

— There are two crucial factors that are at play here. The first (and the main) one is the language. Most of the Kazakhs are Russian-speaking. The second one is Russia’s economic and qualitative superiority. Russia is bigger, richer, and, therefore, more powerful than Kazakhstan. This enables our neighbor to produce media content of quality. It’s no secret that the Russian TV programs are better than ours.

So, these two factors have intertwined with one another. The higher quality content from abroad is presented to our people mostly in Russian and, as a result, we all have fallen under the influence of our more powerful neighbor.

— Can you give some examples?

— The most obvious example is the political outlook of the world presented by the Russian TV, in particular, the place of Russia and Putin on the international stage, the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, the Russian-EU embargo. In the other countries, for instance, in Uzbekistan, Estonia, Georgia, etc., the population is subject to the Russian media-influence to a lesser extent. Based on my observations, these countries have much fewer Putin supporters. My perception is that, in Kazakhstan, many people support Russia’s aggressive policy. People are ready to make excuses for it because this propaganda is pouring out of their TVs by tons on a daily basis.

By the way, there is yet another factor allowing Russia to brainwash the minds of the Kazakhs. The thing is that most of them do not speak any other foreign languages – English, French, Italian, German, etc. – to obtain information from alternative sources. Therefore, an average Kazakh, in fact, finds himself surrounded by the Russian propaganda, and this propaganda is quite effective. I have experienced it myself. If you watch the Russia-24 channel and do not receive any alternative information, everything seems reasonable, logical, and justified. Like it or not, you listen to the Russian journalists’ conclusions. They are capable of presenting information in such a way that it leaves no doubts in its believability.

— What do you think are the risks of an active influence of foreign propaganda?

— Not to have control over its own media space is a grave danger for any country. It is an axiom. Up to the point when the interests of both states are in tune, it doesn’t seem dangerous. The state leaders think there is nothing to worry about. However, interests of countries, even those that seem like eternal allies (take Russia and Ukraine, for example), often diverge eventually. And then, if the necessary steps had not been taken, half of the population might become enemies of their own state. And this, of course, for that state, is quite dangerous.

— Is there a way to resist foreign propaganda? What steps can we take to do it?

— As a liberal, I am against any mechanistic bans. It is a bad way, it only causes the opposite reaction. All things prohibited become all the more desirable, everyone wants to have them. So, they would watch that same “Rossia” channel, only on the Internet. The only way is to let the alternative information sources into the media sphere of the country.

— What particular sources are you talking about?

— No matter that Russia says about Ukraine, the Ukrainian take on the events must be presented to the Kazakhs. No matter what Russia says about the US, the US point of view must be translated and presented to the Kazakhs as well.

What can we do here practically? I do not know. Perhaps, as most of the population does not speak foreign languages, we need to translate more and broadcast more international programs produced in the far-abroad countries.

I am not even going to mention that we need to formulate our own policy and get our message across to our citizens. It is a given. Unfortunately, in this matter, we are failing, too. The unpopularity of many governmental moves tells us that not only are we are unable to stand up against the foreign influence but also we are incapable of crafting our own image. Had the government created a positive image, it would be easier to withstand the outside influence. If the people believe in their leaders, they respect their opinions. So, if the leaders say that something is not right, the people respect that. But when the people do not trust their orators, everything is just useless.

— Going back to your idea of letting the international media into the Kazakh info space in order to lessen the Russian influence. It is hard to imagine that one of the Kazakh channels will, on their own initiative, broadcast Ukrainian TV programs.

— Yes, it is non-feasible.

— Here a political will is needed. But if the authorities will make this decision, a conflict with Russia will possibly arise. What is there to do then?

— I am absolutely certain that Russia will not tolerate that. The relationships will deteriorate. This is why, in many countries, there exists the so called “role playing”. The authorities may put a good face on the matter supporting Russia because, as we all understand perfectly, it will be dangerous to do otherwise. Still, the politically independent activists in Kazakhstan must play their part with honor. They must spread the word, anywhere they can, that we are existing under Russia’s information shield and that it should no longer be allowed, they must retell the international news in our social media and demand that other channels are let into our info sphere.

We must speak about this constantly, we must escalate the tension to such an extent that the government will have to pretend to accede to our requests. Then it will look like a desperate measure on the part of the government which will allow it to remain to be formally loyal to Russia.

—Here is one more question. Recently, I have come across a document. It is a Kazakh research on what the people watch (granted, it is a 2015 rating). The Russian channels occupy all the top positions. Why doesn’t the Kazakh population watch their own TV? Is it because of the poor quality of the content or is it something else?

— Yes, the content is bad. One way to solve this problem is to invest in this area. When we say that we don’t have enough engineers, restaurateurs, economists, lawyers, we send hundreds of our students to study abroad. However, I have never heard that they send people to learn film directing, broadcasting, screenwriting, journalism. Perhaps this is where we should start.

As I’ve mentioned, the fact that most Kazakhs are Russian-speaking helps Russia to strengthen its influence. However, today we may even ignore this problem. We can say, “Yes, we accept this fact that most Kazakhs speak Russian, there is nothing we can do about it”. There is no necessity to squeeze the Russian language out of our info space immediately. We can leave it for later and start fighting for our media space addressing the problem of the content quality.

— How do you suggest to solve this problem?

— By investing in “Boshalak”**, by inviting international professionals – for instance, from Euronews, CNN… Just like we invite foreign managers to join our leading companies, we can bring media specialists to “Khabar”, TAN, the other channels thus increasing the quality of their material. Then we can try to win over the Russian-speaking Kazakh audience. This is how, perhaps, we can entice the Kazakhs to move from the Russian channels. And as the Kazakh language becomes more widespread in the country, the Kazakh content will develop as well.

— As usual, the matter depends on the political will. Thank you for the interview.

*See the interview  with a Russian political science specialist Andrey Grozin

 **“The Bolashak Programme (the Bolashak International Scholarship) is a scholarship awarded to high-performing students from Kazakhstan to study overseas all-expenses paid, provided that they return to Kazakhstan to work for at least five years after graduation” (cited from Wikipedia)